tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1249869099945727276.post3686478631704245624..comments2024-02-08T07:19:54.565-05:00Comments on Quantumleap42: Laman and Lemuel Did Not Think of Themselves as ApostateQuantumleap42http://www.blogger.com/profile/16711817313734546305noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1249869099945727276.post-64314699336785563622020-01-12T11:00:44.771-05:002020-01-12T11:00:44.771-05:00I'm glad you found my post helpful. I think it...I'm glad you found my post helpful. I think it is important to try seeing things from a different perspective. In our own lives we can easily see complexities and know that we struggle with questions and what is right.<br />By looking at scriptures from a different perspective it makes them more real to us and we can see how the same things are going on in our lives.Quantumleap42https://www.blogger.com/profile/16711817313734546305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1249869099945727276.post-16248866656485727302020-01-11T17:07:39.602-05:002020-01-11T17:07:39.602-05:00Found this article as I was preparing a talk that ...Found this article as I was preparing a talk that identifies Laman as righteous and obedient for much of his life. He never openly rebelled against his father. Only his younger (probably at times sanctimonious) little brother. There's even possible evidence that Laman deeply loved Nephi (1 Ne. 4:28 Laman's reaction seems to be more intense than that of his brothers. It could be just fear of Laban and some PTSD, but could also be that Laman was particularly afraid that his youngest brother had just been killed.)<br /><br />Here's some of it (addressed to a younger crowd.) Some of the talk i have adapted from other materials found online. <br /><br /><br />Guess who?<br /><br />I was always obedient to my father. (Even when it was hard.) I loved my family. Though my brothers and I sometimes fought. I agreed to leave everything I possessed and journey into the wilderness to an unknown location at my father’s request (see 1 Nephi 2:4). This involved not only leaving my material possessions but also my hopes and dreams of a future among the only people I knew. I agreed to travel on a three-day journey back to Jerusalem to fulfill the request of my father and the Lord to bring back the plates (see 1 Nephi 3:9). I agreed to approach Laban and request the records, surely suspecting that the success of such a request was not likely (see 1 Nephi 3:11–14). Although my first attempt failed, I went back to my home, and sacrificed all our family wealth in an attempt to secure the scriptural record and obey my father (see 1 Nephi 3:22). I returned to the tent of my father after successfully obtaining the plates (see 1 Nephi 4:38). Once there we “did rejoice exceedingly, and did offer sacrifice and burnt offerings unto the Lord; and … gave thanks unto the God of Israel” (1 Nephi 5:9).<br />I was soon commanded to return to Jerusalem again. This time I was sent to petition Ishmael’s family to ask them to sacrifice everything and join us on my journey to a still-unknown promised land. I agreed to this without murmuring and led the expedition (see 1 Nephi 7:3). I returned once again to the tent of my father in the wilderness after succeeding in my mission. While there, my father Lehi had a dream and shared it with us. I went in unto my father and inquired of him as to the meaning of the dream (see 1 Nephi 15:2–3, 7). I “did humble [myself] before the Lord” as I began to understand the meaning of the dream (1 Nephi 15:20). I continued to inquire about the meaning of my father’s dreams (see 1 Nephi 15:21–26) and did “humble [myself]” again before the Lord (1 Nephi 16:5). I followed my father in the wilderness without murmuring for years. (even when my wife gave birth to our children in a tent and we lived on uncooked meat.) We finally made it to a beautiful land with plenty of fruit and honey. <br />While there I was commanded to build a ship that could carry us to another land. This ship ultimately carried my family and I beyond the hope of ever returning to our homeland again. Finally, after travailing in the wilderness and on the ocean for over a decade, my family and I arrived in the promised land (see 1 Nephi 18:23). Finally, before his death, my father Lehi blessed me and promised me the birthright blessing on conditions of righteousness: “said he, notwithstanding [y]our afflictions, [you] have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord” (2 Nephi 1:2, 5). I built up a great nation on the American continent and my children were blessed with incredible blessings. <br />Alright, does everyone have a guess of who I am? Ok on 3 we’ll say the answer quietly together. Ready? 1, 2, 3….Laman. <br />Malloyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04845657828303747814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1249869099945727276.post-19168017223225574812017-06-05T01:05:38.936-04:002017-06-05T01:05:38.936-04:00I think that you're spot on.I think that you're spot on.LLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05538854359365988863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1249869099945727276.post-46927773593881952242017-06-04T22:06:04.362-04:002017-06-04T22:06:04.362-04:00I am someone who is always looking for more inform...I am someone who is always looking for more information, so having the large plates would be a beautiful treat. Maybe I'm wrong about Laman and Lemuel, but until we get more information we work with what we have.Quantumleap42https://www.blogger.com/profile/16711817313734546305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1249869099945727276.post-44972856793182073412017-05-30T20:03:20.536-04:002017-05-30T20:03:20.536-04:00Laman and Lemuel were pragmatic. Pragmatism was no...Laman and Lemuel were pragmatic. Pragmatism was not what the Lord required. George Bernard Shaw wrote, "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all<br />progress depends on the unreasonable man." And to be fair to them, they did hang in there (though they complained all the while). <br /><br />One day when the large plates are revealed and translated, we will learn that the 'new land' that Nephi and Lehi found was populated with people. Those people lived off the land and Laman and Lemuel joined with them (and lost their genetic identity in time) because it was the practical thing to do. The Lord required something else. <br /><br />A lot of what people teach in church is the "legend of the Book of Mormon" rather than specifically what is written and what is not. You've touched on it on this blog. LLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05538854359365988863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1249869099945727276.post-30235650224598501512017-05-28T22:17:11.870-04:002017-05-28T22:17:11.870-04:00(That may sound more judgmental than I intended. ...(That may sound more judgmental than I intended. My reluctance has more to do with a lack of time and confidence than anything else.)Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10726768048961021911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1249869099945727276.post-88777203626464415392017-05-28T21:10:58.085-04:002017-05-28T21:10:58.085-04:00Like you said, this kind of thing doesn't belo...Like you said, this kind of thing doesn't belong in a regular church class. But I've considered doing a fireside or two covering some of the least speculative ideas about the Book of Mormon, from resources like the Interpreter, such as the fact that the Amlicites and Amalekites are likely the same group. For me, at least, it makes the book much more interesting (and real). I think that there's some great Book of Mormon scholarship that moves past the question of whether it's true or not--It is!--and adds color and depth to the book. But I've worried about what the reaction might be and what kind of ingrained assumptions I might run into with that kind of presentation.Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10726768048961021911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1249869099945727276.post-19366746513332275402017-05-28T20:03:59.445-04:002017-05-28T20:03:59.445-04:00Hi Sam,
I don't know if anyone has made the c...Hi Sam,<br /><br />I don't know if anyone has made the connection between Laman and Lemuel and the Liahona as a sacred object that facilitated revelation, but <a href="http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the-deuteronomist-reforms-and-lehis-family-dynamics-a-social-context-for-the-rebellions-of-laman-and-lemuel/" rel="nofollow">others have been looking at Laman and Lemuel as being heavily influenced by the Deuteronomist reforms</a> started by King Josiah. So I definitely not the first one to propose that idea.<br /><br />My thought that Laman and Lemuel considered a sacred object as necessary for revelation is purely conjecture. There is nothing in the Book of Mormon that would show that directly. But it is a possibility given the culture at the time. Which makes it something that I would never teach in Church, but something that I am interested in discussing online. There are those (see the link above) who would probably argue that Laman and Lemuel would most likely reject the concept of sacred objects as conduits of revelation. But we don't have any firm evidence either way, just conjecture based on what would have been possible from the culture at the time.<br /><br />When Nephi finished explaining the vision to Laman and Lemuel they tell him that he was teaching them hard things. Usually in church lessons we conclude it is because he told them to repent, but it may actually be because he taught them things that went against their ingrained religious assumptions. It makes me wonder how many ingrained religious assumptions we have that are hard for us to give up.Quantumleap42https://www.blogger.com/profile/16711817313734546305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1249869099945727276.post-18529846680669036422017-05-28T11:16:09.068-04:002017-05-28T11:16:09.068-04:00What a fantastic post! (I've been following y...What a fantastic post! (I've been following your blog for a while and have enjoyed all your posts.) I haven't seen this interpretation before. I assume it's yours?<br /><br />I agree that the common portrayal of Laman and Lemuel as foolish villains isn't likely to be accurate. I also don't believe that Nephi was the whiny propogandist that scholars sometimes portray him as.<br /><br />I do wonder though... Is it necessary that Laman and Lemuel felt that a sacred object was required? Or perhaps what they meant was that they were not prophets, and that only prophets get the kind of revelations that Nephi was talking about. That's similar, I think, to what you're proposing. What do you think?Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10726768048961021911noreply@blogger.com